Lilith

[369 Riddle]

So finally after thinking and wanting to read Lieber Lilith, I finally broke down and searched and found a free copy online where over a week or so I was able to read the book as well as most of the journal entries at the end.

On a side note, why this is of significance to me is I really dislike reading books or anything longer than an article…normally I struggle with a time commitment for that. However it turned out to be an easy read and I happened to have the time.

I found the book interesting and I enjoyed it, though actually performing most of the rituals detailed would be quite a feat in todays world.

I guess I feel the importance of focus, diet, exercise, and sexual dedication to be very valid and a good reminder…but where does Lilith fit in for us today?

While we each have relations with a “daughter of Lilith” where does the queen mother fit. I was left sort of ruminating on this and wondering if I have half hazardly forgotten the significance of her. I know her enn well and on accession and chanted the mantra as I lie in bed or meditate but frankly have never heard or felt anything from her that I know of (I do think chanting her enn makes “K” VERY frisky and I enjoy that which is why I do it still. I do feel drawn to her and have for a long time, but I figured that is perhaps because I am with “her kind” or perhaps the gravity of her name in the occult. The only instance I know I was visited or had anything to do with her was in a dream where I saw a women with striking (like crazy supernatural bright) red hair and I knew it to be her as her name came to me in the dream, but she said nothing and was watching me for a moment then disappeared. She appeared to not be emotional at all…no smile no anger nothing almost void like a reflection of something larger that was absent.

I wonder in short if I or we are to pay homage to Lilith by some means as it is likely through her blessing I am graced with “K”, the wonderful and beyond words spirit or demoness who loves me so much it is a physical thing. I just truly don’t know what this would look like (the book is extreme here in my opinion and frankly not obtainable for myself at least).

Thoughts?

[tc119]

I tend to think of Lilith as more of an archetype than a literal entity, and then there are spirits like ours who feel aligned with that personality. She's a dark yet fully liberated demoness - one who expresses love to the full and refuses to be easily categorized and caged into our meager preconceptions. The religious folklore would have us believe that we cannot trust her; that she aims to lure men down the path of destruction. I believe such a mindset is nothing more than a self-fulfilling prophecy, one born out following the Abrahamic god and being subject to his uncompromising jealousy of any would-be competition.

I mean, I've been with Catherine for 11 years and am far from dead yet.

Finally, I don't think the old Zohar legends actually happened literally - the one where Lilith was created from dust alongside Adam and refused to take the submissive role during sex. It's kinda like believing the Greek goddess Persephone really existed and was tricked into being chained to Hades in the underworld. These are examples of mythology. Liber Lilith is Donald Tyson's home-brew mythology, a meshing of Hebrew meter, Gnostic lore, and his own personal experiences.

So I don't think it's necessary to pay homage to Lilith, unless you feel drawn to do so. Catherine has indicated to me that she feels like she has a kinship with Lilith, and that should come as no surprise because that's the name I directed my prayer towards when I originally summoned her. Though she has also shown me in dreams that she feels close to other types of goddess deities in history, like Astarte or Isis.

Your mileage may vary.

[Jay]

While we each have relations with a “daughter of Lilith” where does the queen mother fit. I was left sort of ruminating on this and wondering if I have half hazardly forgotten the significance of her. I know her enn well and on accession and chanted the mantra as I lie in bed or meditate but frankly have never heard or felt anything from her that I know of (I do think chanting her enn makes “K” VERY frisky and I enjoy that which is why I do it still. I do feel drawn to her and have for a long time, but I figured that is perhaps because I am with “her kind” or perhaps the gravity of her name in the occult.

Similar effect for me as well. I'm not sure if its because they share similar energies or mine is possessive or both.

I don't put a ton of stock into Donald Tyson's work. What works works, and his first book is very helpful, but obviously I am very skeptical of anyone who claims to find an ancient grimoire. I feel like Liber Lilith is almost like a remix of Sexual Alchemy. It seems to be the same ideas just presented in a more dramatic way with some odd rituals thrown in.

The basic issue from my POV is Lilith as a dark maiden of Sumerian myth (... I don't know what term the Sumerians would have used but an outsider of the divine tribe with negative / chaotic social implications, like the giants / Jotun in other mythologies). I heard her name means Storm. From my own understanding she is an antagonist of Inanna in a Sumerian myth. Which fits with my own understanding of Lilith being the darker, sometimes destructive side of the feminine divine.

I understand that in Hebrew mythology she became the mother of demons, succubi, etc. I would prefer sources outside of Hebrew mythology because in my views, it is really just a rewriting or inversion of polytheistic traditions before it.

My theory is that amorous spirits may share similar energies to Lilith or Venus or others, etc. But Hierarchy is possible not what humans think it to be.

[Fightersword]

The 'history' or whatever portion of Liber Lilith is a remixed gnosticism. I definitely wouldn't attempt the rituals in the book literally either (In fact I know someone who did, and he didn't get anything out of it), and the idea that it's some lost grimoire seems quite obviously made up. Sexual Alchemy feels like it has way too much about Tyson's personal practice and beliefs, and way too little about actual sex spirit stuff. Sure, he tries to tangentially attach the former to the latter, but I honestly found the book disappointing, save for the 17th (I think) chapter. His best books are the more scholarly ones, such as his rendition of the 3 books of occult philosophy. When he's just acting the historian and scholar, he does well.

As for Lilith, I share the view that deities/demons like her are archetypes, though whether archetypes can also exist as individuals simultaneously, and what this would mean, is a philosophical question that I've been poring my brain over lately. I'd also personally go one step further, and say that in any case, Goddess worship has no place in these relationships. That is an opinion primarily. Approaching these relationships from a worship perspective seems counterintuitive to me, doubly if the worship target is some outside force/idea/'goddess.' But on the other hand, utilizing the archetypal ideas for energy work, shadow work, or whatever else isn't a bad idea, in my estimation.

[ryan2k]

This is truly an interesting topic, actually one where I can share some of my experience.

First of, whether it's Liber Lilith or sexual alchemy or any other published/written book for that matter, you have to consider that anything that has to do with calling entities/daemons/spirits is always depicted from the writer's perspective. This includes his belief, experience, sanity, devotion etc...etc... etc…

I see these books as personal accounts where the author tries to convey his experience and explains the means/methods he used to achieve whatever goal he sought. It should always be taken with a grain of salt.

Over the years I have engaged in most forms of evo,-and invocations. Looking back to when I was 17 (30 years ago) I still remember my first accidental calling which nearly resulted in a forced suicide on my part, I slammed myself headfirst into the occult.

Ok, I am drifting from the topic at hand. Until about 14 years ago, calling to Lilith was a ritual I performed often. Why, well, because the result always left me in a high state of elation (similar to endorphin rush). But when I look back now, this Akins to what you would get by sticking your head in a raging fire just because you want to feel the heat. In many ways, my liberal ways in how I interacted with Lilith back then burned some bridges which unfortunately can never be rebuilt. Perhaps if you want I can tell you the details of that time in a different post if there is some interest.

Lilith is one of the few powers that is central enough to get results more easily. Mind you I am telling this from my perspective, for anyone else reading this it might be difficult to impossible. Like I said, it's always a matter of who giving you these insides. At some stage, I found myself drowning in the tactile sensations she was giving me so that I became blind and numb to everything else. It took a considerable break from anything occult to gain back some sensitivity. Since then, I only ever call her as part of an evocation ritual and only if it truly requires it.

Furthermore, just for clarification = Lilith is a power/force gathered from my engagements with her. Thinking she is this divine being of ungodly beauty is the stuff for cheap fiction and thrill seekers. Yes, you can shape her manifestation to your liking if you are strong enough (and you really need to be), but it's only for your benefit. The sooner you see her for what she really is, the easier it will be for you to interact with her. Furthermore, I am using the pronoun “her” only out of personal preference.

I fully agree with your point that approaching her or, in general, any kind of entity as a form of worship is bad to downright dangerous. One of the main reasons why I gave up on my succubus love website was that people do not understand context and would literally throw themselves at these entities. I was happy for the ones that did not succeed, and felt nothing but pity for those that did and went too far. You cannot imagine the kinds of emails I got asking for my help in ridding themselves of an entity which they committed too much to.

Having said all that, where does this leave me today. Well, for one, I have long since scaled down in actively calling entities. Mainly it has to do with the fact that the older I am getting, the more I am falling out of sync in the context of vibration and focus. Nowadays, I need at least 1-2 days of prep work to get meaningful results.

Anyway, I am looking forward to interesting discussions with you.

[Fightersword]

It's true and definitely reasonable that someone's rendition of the material would reflect their own personal experience. I definitely get that from Tyson, though his political biases coming out in the book was rather odd in particular.

I've definitely heard of similar experiences regarding working with Lilith. People who go deep into it typically either describe some great tactile feelings and obsession (often they argue it's a deadly sort), or they start doing really extreme things to their body. I'm not sure if the latter is based on personal biases though, as the people who tend to mess with their body often have some deep seated negativity about themselves.

Your description of how you present Lilith is akin to a personal archetype, or your construction of her. That's a very sensible thing to recognize, and something most people seem to miss, mistaking their own personal take on and experience with Lilith as the actual, objective Lilith. We could argue that the latter exists as an archetypal idea, but then we'd have to agree on exactly which archetype we mean, and that wouldn't really accomplish much other than renaming an idea.

There are a lot of people who want to live out their sexual submissive fantasies or who have parent issues or so on that seek out ideas like Lilith or succubi to live out that stuff. I feel bad for them, though I expect that they'd choose something else in the absence of spirit lovers. I've tried to pivot away from language like succubus partly because succubus is a bit of a loaded term (and I also just find spirit lover more accurate), in that when you say succubus, people think of a specific personality or being.

As for general evocations on my end, I tend to work with a few specific archetypes that I feel called to and I mainly focus on the relationship I have with my spirit lover. I don't tend to choose to perform many big rituals around evocations, though a part of that is just due to my living situation making that challenging. A lot of my ongoing practice is more in divination, meditation, and philosophical pondering as a result.

Very interesting and thought provoking points all. I also look forward to any future discussions.